Hola a todos:
En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en el que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama "BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de registro "secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a cualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era secreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño bautizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto que pudieran proporcionarme.
Alessandro
********************************************************************************
Hello everyone:
Researching information about an ancestor, I found that the film he is registered/christened is called "Secret Christenings 1868-1900" at Church records for Zapopan, Jal. Finding this type of "secret" record shoked me, I would like to ask anyone at NR who knows about this topic if you can extend or explain me more about this. Why was it secret? What does it contain? Is by chance, the baptized child a son of a violation, incest or something similar? I would appreciate very much any information related.
Sincerely
Alessandro
Where could one find those secret baptisms?
En donde se pueden encontrar los bautizos secretos?
Rosie Cordova
- Log in to post comments
Alessandro,
no escrivo el espanol muy bien...pero los bautismos secretos son los ninos que tien padres que no son casados.....
the secret baptisms are those that the parents are not married.....hence the child is a bastard...
Stella
-----Original Message-----
From: viteliky@hotmail.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 7:43 pm
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
Hola a todos:
En busqueda de un antepasado, encontré que el microfilm en el que se encuentra el registro de su bautizo se llama "BAUTISMOS SECRETOS 1869-1900" de la Iglesia catolica de Zapopan, Jalisco. Encontrarme con este tipo de registro "secreto" me sorprendio mucho y quisiera preguntarle a cualquier persona que sepa sobre este tema si me puede ampliar o ilustrar con informacion al respecto. Porque era secreto? Que es lo que puede contener? Es acaso el niño bautizado producto de insesto, violación o algo por el estilo? Agradeceria cualquier información al respecto que
- Log in to post comments
Esthela:
Thank you for your comment. You know what? About what you say, it is very strange saying the parents were not married because this child I am talking about is the 8th son (and the last-one) for the same parents. No doubt he is their son, I consider after 30 years living together and having 8 sons this couple of parents SHOULD be married. I really think they were married, and I think there must be another cause for this type of registration too.
But anyway, I hope to find out soon, I thank your comment and I take it just like that till new information comes out. This is my very 1st. hint.
LIC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
Ser de Luz!!!
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 22:48:11 -0400
> From: sjlstar@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
> Alessandro,
> no escrivo el espanol muy bien...pero los bautismos secretos son los ninos que tien padres que no son casados.....
>
> the secret baptisms are those that the parents
- Log in to post comments
Alessandro,
I searched high and low for my grandmothers birth cert. could not find it, then the lady at the LDS center told me to look at the bautismos secretos......the illegite kids.........and yes I found her there.......my gr grandmother and this man had sex without being married....(conceiving my grandmother).....he begged her to marry him but no.........my gr grandmother then married someone else and five years later her first daughter was born, five more children none of them have their birth certs in the bautismos secretos.....this was 1906 when my grandmother was born...so yes it was very embarressing not to be married then
Stella
-----Original Message-----
From: ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:06 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
sthela:
Thank you for your comment. You know what? About what you say, it is very
trange saying the parents were not married because this child I am talking
bout is
- Log in to post comments
Thursday, July 9, 2009
I have seen and used a similar film from the Atotonilco el Alto area. The children listed, or in particular the one that I was researching, had both parents and both sets of grandparents on the Secret Baptismal microfilm. The child's father was married and the father apparently came for the child after his birth. I do not know what happened to the mother. I do have extensive records of her parents, siblings, and ancestors. I have similar records for the father.
The child grew up in the household of his father with half siblings and the father's wife. The half siblings, who all were apparently older, were reportedly very mean to the child. Nothing bad was said about the husband's wife. I did not know the child as he grew up and became a man but I did know his son Lorenzo.
Uncle Lorenzo was ashamed of his father's humble beginnings and did not tell me about his dad until he himself was a very old man. However, others in the family did tell me the
- Log in to post comments
Patricia,
no it is not for us to judge, and it just sickens me to know that from the beginning it was like my grandmother had to be hidden. she also was treated horribly by her mothers husband and their children........in later years when they were adults of coarse they loved her and she forgot it all.......she was very religious....the stuff they did to her....was horrible and always brought up that she was illegit.........they spit in her food, her step dad would walk by while she was eating and pass gas right there next to her...........she was made to do all the work...........sheesh why didnt gr grandmother give her away??? so sad......
Stella
-----Original Message-----
From: patricia burton
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:48 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
hursday, July 9, 2009
I have seen and used a similar film from the Atotonilco el Alto area. The
hildren listed, or in particular the one that I was researching, had
- Log in to post comments
yes both my grandmothers parents were listed on the secret baptism, and so were the grandparents, but the parents were not married.
-----Original Message-----
From: patricia burton
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, Jul 9, 2009 8:48 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
hursday, July 9, 2009
I have seen and used a similar film from the Atotonilco el Alto area. The
hildren listed, or in particular the one that I was researching, had both
arents and both sets of grandparents on the Secret Baptismal microfilm. The
hild's father was married and the father apparently came for the child after
is birth. I do not know what happened to the mother. I do have extensive
ecords of her parents, siblings, and ancestors. I have similar records for the
ather.
The child grew up in the household of his father with half siblings and the
ather's wife. The half siblings, who all were apparently older, were
eportedly very mean to the child. Nothing bad was
- Log in to post comments
In Jerez they were a little kinder and called it hijos naturales but I found there were many people who were there as umarried but I had a marriage record for them. As someone else said they had many children sometimes and one wonders who decided they belonged in this book. In Jerez the film is 0439889 and covers 1867 to 1875. Unfortunately I did not get to complete it.
Linda in Everett
--- On Thu, 7/9/09, ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO wrote:
From: ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 8:06 PM
Esthela:
Thank you for your comment. You know what? About what you say, it is very strange saying the parents were not married because this child I am talking about is the 8th son (and the last-one) for the same parents. No doubt he is their son, I consider after 30 years living together and having 8 sons this couple of parents SHOULD be married. I really think they were married
- Log in to post comments
I guess no one should be surprised to what lengths some will go to show their lack of humanity, even within their own families.
I used to think it rare when I heard of one sibling stealing a family inheritance from other brothers and sisters but not anymore. It happened in my fathers family and I heard of an old friend and it happened in his, and then an ex-girlfriend robbed her only brother (only surviving family member) of his share of inheritance. It makes you wonder. Rolando
--- On Thu, 7/9/09, sjlstar@aol.com wrote:
From: sjlstar@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 11:03 PM
Patricia,
no it is not for us to judge, and it just sickens me to know that from the beginning it was like my grandmother had to be hidden. she also was treated horribly by her mothers husband and their children........in later years when they were adults of coarse they loved her and she forgot it all.......she was
- Log in to post comments
Rolando,
are we related??..............lol
My gr gr grandmother/father left my grandmother an inheritance.......and yes those half siblings stole it! they and their parents were left nothing for the way they treated my grandmother. My grandmothers mother somehow did some kind of shannanigans and took it from my grandmother and gave it to her other kids, cause it wasn't fair that their grandparents left them nothing......if you knew my granmother you would of loved her, everyone did....no bitterness for the way her life turned out.
Stella
we dig all this stuff up huh?
-----Original Message-----
From: Rolando Romo
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Fri, Jul 10, 2009 12:05 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
I guess no one should be surprised to what lengths some will go to show their
ack of humanity, even within their own families.
used to think it rare when I heard of one sibling stealing a family
nheritance from other brothers and sisters but not
- Log in to post comments
Yes you don't have to dig too deep or too far to find this kind of thing. It is one of those major sins - greed.
My father was falsely accused of hoarding his father's inheritance for himself and a sister convinced the majority of her siblings to support her and she convinced my grandmother, on her deathbed, to make her the executor of my grandmother's will. Needless to say, that the sister not only took everything for herself and didn't even share with her siblings that had supported her but she refused to make repairs on properties and pay taxes. She lost it all and none of the other brothers and sisters ever saw a dime. My father had been giving them all a small share of the benefits and putting most of the money back to repairs and taxes. Their greed didn't pay off in the long run. The fact is that Dad didn't care so much about the money but how his siblings, with a few exceptions, turned on him. It has hurt him deeply. All of his brothers and sisters are gone now, except for
- Log in to post comments
I suspect that many families have come apart due to such conflicts. It will be
nteresting to see what happens to the family of Michael Jackson.
Soooo true.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rolando Romo
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:22 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
Yes you don't have to dig too deep or too far to find this kind of thing. It is
ne of those major sins - greed.
y father was falsely accused of hoarding his father's inheritance for himself
nd a sister convinced the majority of her siblings to support her and she
onvinced my grandmother, on her deathbed, to make her the executor of my
randmother's will. Needless to say, that the sister not only took everything
or herself and didn't even share with her siblings that had supported her but
he refused to make repairs on properties and pay taxes. She lost it all and
one of the other brothers and sisters ever saw a dime. My father had been
iving them all a
- Log in to post comments
My husband's great grandmother said when she was young the priests would record baptisms in the book of "hijos naturales" if the father was not present for the baptism. Even if the priest knew the parents were married. She said the priests would not take anyone's word, but the father's that the child was legitimate.
> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 08:51:06 -0700
> From: longsjourney@yahoo.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
> In Jerez they were a little kinder and called it hijos naturales but I found there were many people who were there as umarried but I had a marriage record for them. As someone else said they had many children sometimes and one wonders who decided they belonged in this book. In Jerez the film is 0439889 and covers 1867 to 1875. Unfortunately I did not get to complete it.
>
> Linda in Everett
>
> --- On Thu, 7/9/09, ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO wrote:
>
>
> From: ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
> Subject: Re:
- Log in to post comments
books are not secrets that are not classified as natural children, as in
tepetongo zacatecas Baptisms 1843-1860,1862-1919 of natural children - FHL
INTL Film [1158157]
no son libros secretos sin que estan catalogados como hijos naturales , como
en tepetongo zacatecas Bautismos de hijos naturales 1843-1860,1862-1919 -
FHL INTL Film [ 1158157 ]
2009/7/16 Lona Rivera
>
> My husband's great grandmother said when she was young the priests would
> record baptisms in the book of "hijos naturales" if the father was not
> present for the baptism. Even if the priest knew the parents were married.
> She said the priests would not take anyone's word, but the father's that the
> child was legitimate.
>
> > Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 08:51:06 -0700
> > From: longsjourney@yahoo.com
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
> >
> > In Jerez they were a little kinder and called it hijos naturales but I
> found there were many people who were there as
- Log in to post comments
Thank you Esthela, I get the point. It is just it sounded strange to me.
LIC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
Ser de Luz!!!
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 23:29:44 -0400
> From: sjlstar@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
>
> Alessandro,
> I searched high and low for my grandmothers birth cert. could not find it, then the lady at the LDS center told me to look at the bautismos secretos......the illegite kids.........and yes I found her there.......my gr grandmother and this man had sex without being married....(conceiving my grandmother).....he begged her to marry him but no.........my gr grandmother then married someone else and five years later her first daughter was born, five more children none of them have their birth certs in the bautismos secretos.....this was 1906 when my grandmother was born...so yes it was very embarressing not to be married then
> Stella
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
>
- Log in to post comments
Oh my gosh yes Alessandro its very strange!!!
How do you think I felt when this lady told me to look in the Bautismos SECRETOS........what the heck was this? secretos??? secrets???? what??? then I find my grandmother.....and why she is there and I tell my mother and she tells me...dont tell your grandmother!!!!......(about the baptism) My mother really hates that that I do this geneology.....doesn't like me finding out the family secrets.......lol.......later my gr grandmother married her first cousin and had these horrible siblings that made life very difficult for my grandmother.
Stella
-----Original Message-----
From: ALESSANDRO VITELA-TOSCANO
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Fri, Jul 10, 2009 2:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Bautismos SECRETOS?
hank you Esthela, I get the point. It is just it sounded strange to me.
IC. ALESSANDRO VITELA
Ser de Luz!!!
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 23:29:44 -0400
From: sjlstar@aol.com
Subject
- Log in to post comments
I don't know about secret baptisms in the 1800's. However, during the Mexican Revolution in the early 1900's many Catholic Church officials had to go underground and were often killed or imprisoned for performing religious rites.
I had an aunt that was born in Mexico during the time of the revolution and my grandfather took her to a priest during the night and had her secretly baptized in order not to get both the priest and my grandfather in trouble with the revolutionaries. Yes, my grandfather and grandmother were legally married in Monterrey and my grandmother stayed at home that night in order to take care of my uncle who was a toddler at that time. My grandparents eventually moved to Texas to escape the violence of the revolution. With the exception of one cousin (that now lives in Monterrey) our entire family of descendants from my grandparents still live in the USA.
- Log in to post comments
I don't know about secret baptisms in the 1800's. However, during the Mexican Revolution in the early 1900's many Catholic Church officials had to go underground and were often killed or imprisoned for performing religious rites.
I had an aunt that was born in Mexico during the time of the revolution and my grandfather took her to a priest during the night and had her secretly baptized in order not to get both the priest and my grandfather in trouble with the revolutionaries. Yes, my grandfather and grandmother were legally married in Monterrey and my grandmother stayed at home that night in order to take care of my uncle who was a toddler at that time. My grandparents eventually moved to Texas to escape the violence of the revolution. With the exception of one cousin (that now lives in Monterrey) our entire family of descendants from my grandparents still live in the USA.
- Log in to post comments
Bautizo secreto