TEST SITE - DO NOT USE - Development only

I have seen both Dolores and Maria used as men's names
on many records.  Often Maria comes from the given
name Jose Maria  My great-great grandfather's given
name was Jose Dolores.  His marriage record shows that
he used only Dolores when he married my great-great
grandmother.  

--- zendean  wrote:

>  
> Fellow searchers;
>   I have encountered some thing strange in my
> extraction film. I know that "hija natural" means
> that the child has no father. But at times there is
> an man's name written in below the child's name in
> the bapised child list, but not in body of the
> narrative where the names of the parents is listed.
> In your experience, does this mean that the father
> was named , but does not acknowledge that child ?
> Additionally, I sometimes find names for the father
> listed as "Dolores" or "Maria Isvaldo" or
> "Yldlesterialde Isabel". Is that a name for a man ?
> I have never met a man named Dolores but at times a
> woman is named Juan Jesus. Is there a

To add to Victor's comments: I saw a baptismal record in which the body of the form did not include the biological father's name.  The child was identified as "natural".  At the end of the record I saw a sentence in which someone (presumably) the priest wrote that so-and-so had admitted to being the father of the child.  Human nature is frail at times and many rules are seriously bent.  I have also read that priests were very scarce in many of the mission areas.  The priest could show up to marry and baptize once or twice a year.  ometimes once in two or three years.  The absence of a priest did not prevent couples from joining their lives and bearing children.  Thus since the church did not wish to upset people it developed the term "hijo/a natural".  These children were not considered illegitimate although in many church records you will find entries testifying that a father accepted a child as legitimate.  This made it possible for the hijo natural to enjoy whatever inheritance

I wish to add a few comments.  Freedom of expression also includes freedom of using the delete button.  There are many things in this existence which cannot be changed.  Yet mature adults discuss them because of another gift of the creator- intellectual curiosity.  Iagree that so long as folks are respectful of one another good can come of speaking about a subject that might make others uncomfortable.  I would hate to see open-ness stifled.

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Victor Villarreal 
Sent: Jun 23, 2005 8:08 PM
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ranchos] Re: Racial Classifications





No need to be sad, Carol.



It is understandable that talking about these topics related to race 

can be considered tabu.  But we all are mature persons, tolerant of 

each other, and I haven't read any personal insult or something that 

reflects ill will in any message.  



On the contrary, it can be a learning experience to bring

No need to be sad, Carol.

It is understandable that talking about these topics related to race 
can be considered tabu.  But we all are mature persons, tolerant of 
each other, and I haven't read any personal insult or something that 
reflects ill will in any message.  

On the contrary, it can be a learning experience to bring historical 
facts into the open so we learn the painful mistakes of our ancestors 
and avoid stumbling with the same blocks in our time.

Well, this is just my opinion.  If Joseph thinks we should not 
mention any of this I will respect his wish.

Victor

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, Carol Lester  wrote:
> I think it is so very sad that people can spend so much 
time "talking" about something they cannot change...and perhaps if we 
would read the Word of God and apply His principle of "seeing each 
other as HE sees us, there would never be an on-going conversation 
such as is taking place with the Ranchos group.   As one very 
wise "human"

Rock on, Carol!!!:) Marge:)





On Jun 23, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Carol Lester wrote:

I think it is so very sad that people can spend so much time "talking" about something they cannot change...and perhaps if we would read the Word of God and apply His principle of "seeing each other as HE sees us, there would never be an on-going conversation such as is taking place with the Ranchos group.   As one very wise "human" was paraphrased once long ago.."me thinks you all protest too much..."   Come on, really, what does it matter anyway?  My final thought...love yourself; because you were created in the IMAGE of a living GOD...and I garantee all of you, He knew exactly what HE was doing when He made us.  He doesn't make junk...we do.  As for the DNA?....HE MADE THAT TOO!!!   



-----Original Message-----

From: Emilia

Sent: Jun 23, 2005 7:48 AM

To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [ranchos] Racial Classifications



I just found an answer as to why, when my husband and I

I think it is so very sad that people can spend so much time "talking" about something they cannot change...and perhaps if we would read the Word of God and apply His principle of "seeing each other as HE sees us, there would never be an on-going conversation such as is taking place with the Ranchos group.   As one very wise "human" was paraphrased once long ago.."me thinks you all protest too much..."   Come on, really, what does it matter anyway?  My final thought...love yourself; because you were created in the IMAGE of a living GOD...and I garantee all of you, He knew exactly what HE was doing when He made us.  He doesn't make junk...we do.  As for the DNA?....HE MADE THAT TOO!!!    

-----Original Message-----
From: Emilia 
Sent: Jun 23, 2005 7:48 AM
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ranchos] Racial Classifications

I just found an answer as to why, when my husband and I have roots in 
Mexico going back to the early 1700's, he and I look so different.  
In

Jose Luis,

About "hija natural" or "hijo natural" I've always known that it 
meant a child born out of wedlock not that the child has no father.
I've seen baptisms records of "hijos naturales" where both parents 
are listed.

Identifying the gender that corresponds to a particular name can be 
tricky and there's not a single answer that applies to every case.  
We would have to take a look at the actual manuscript film to 
decide.  A rule of thumb is that the father's name is always listed 
first.

Regarding the use of "Y" versus "I" in names such as Ysabel or 
Ysidro, you have to realize that back in the old days there were no 
standard grammar rules and whatever rules there were I think the 
priests applied them at their own discretion.  The older the 
documents you look at the wider variability you will find in their 
caligraphy/script.

Victor

--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, zendean  wrote:
>  
> Fellow searchers;
>   I have encountered some thing strange in my

 
Fellow searchers;
  I have encountered some thing strange in my extraction film. I know that "hija natural" means that the child has no father. But at times there is an man's name written in below the child's name in the bapised child list, but not in body of the narrative where the names of the parents is listed. In your experience, does this mean that the father was named , but does not acknowledge that child ? Additionally, I sometimes find names for the father listed as "Dolores" or "Maria Isvaldo" or "Yldlesterialde Isabel". Is that a name for a man ? I have never met a man named Dolores but at times a woman is named Juan Jesus. Is there a better formula than if the name ends in "o"= boy or "a"=girl ? The child is either "Hija" or Hijo". the times that I have trouble is when the name is not clear and the parish father puts "hn" or "hl", in those cases I can't tell the gender.  
Also, at times the parent is listed as "Jesus Montenegro or Juan Eliso Montenegro". Do you know if

Armando, I had no idea that the peoples of Los Altos were considered 
elitist... you see the first Gutierrez record I've found for my 
Gutierrez family says they are from Los Haciendas de los Altos, 
Jalisco and registered the birth in Atoyac.  Guess they came by the 
attitudes from way back... Many people think of racism as one sided 
but like you, I know first hand that discrimination comes from both 
sides of the street..

Linda

I find it interesting that after 500 years we Mexicans are still 
trying to explain our skin color.
My maternal grandmother was poor as a church mouse but was very 
proud of her white skin and my mothers blond hair and blue eyes, 
they were from Jalisco.  My fathers family was from Zacatecas, 
darker skinned with Mestizo blood lines.  When my father married my 
mother my maternal grandmother was very upset because he was dark 
skinned.  Her first question when babies were born was always "what 
color are they."  It's no wonder with this background as a child 
raised in a color concious California when people told me I 
didn't "look" like a Mexican I was proud, not something I am proud 
of now... As I grew up and learned the history of my genealogy I 
learned to take pride in all that I am and not the color of my skin, 
and now when someone askes me what nationality I am and they say the 
usual "you don't look like a Mexican" I always respond, "What does a 
Mexican look like?"  I also

Don't forget the "tara" in Taraumara (sp?) Indians in Chihuahua.
Memarge:)

Here is another link:

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/RG/guide/WLSpanis19.asp#racial_te
rminology

So......according to the link above:
Coyote = Spanish (1/2), Indian (3/8), and Negro (1/8)

I doubt the science was ever that accurate.  As someone mentioned 
earlier, I imagine, it had more to do with your complexion and your 
parents complexion.  Besides someone who is a farmer is going to get 
more sun then someone who owns a hacienda.  They might have the same 
amount of Spanish and Indian blood but one is going to be classified as 
Espanol and the other will be classified as Mestizo.  Plus who could 
keep up when someone who was Coyote married someone who was mestizo or 
lobo, etc...

Just my two cents...
Angie

Thanks!
> 
> From: "Victor Villarreal" 
> Date: 2005/06/23 Thu PM 12:14:47 EDT
> To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [ranchos] Re: Joseph's DNA
> 
> 

Literally, it means "cat instead of bear", but the original saying

is "gato por liebre", which would be "cat instead of hare".



Back in the old times, when people used to eat hares, rabbits and

what not, you had to watch out that you were not sold a cat for a

hare, as they would look about the same after taking the skin off and

cut the meat into pieces.



Does it make sense? 





--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com,
wrote:

> Excuse my lack of knowing the spanish language (shame on my

parents!), but what does the term "gato por oso" mean?

> >

> > From: "Emilie Garcia"

> > Date: 2005/06/23 Thu AM 12:59:21 EDT

> > To:

> > Subject: [ranchos] Joseph's DNA

> >

> > So, Joseph,  I couldn't make out a thing on your DNA results.  I

guess I am a surumata.  So, are

Literally, it means "cat instead of bear", but the original saying 
is "gato por liebre", which would be "cat instead of hare".

Back in the old times, when people used to eat hares, rabbits and 
what not, you had to watch out that you were not sold a cat for a 
hare, as they would look about the same after taking the skin off and 
cut the meat into pieces.

Does it make sense?  


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:
> Excuse my lack of knowing the spanish language (shame on my 
parents!), but what does the term "gato por oso" mean?
> > 
> > From: "Emilie Garcia" 
> > Date: 2005/06/23 Thu AM 12:59:21 EDT
> > To: 
> > Subject: [ranchos] Joseph's DNA
> > 
> > So, Joseph,  I couldn't make out a thing on your DNA results.  I 
guess I am a surumata.  So, are you in the haplogroup for African-
Black or for Moroccan-Berber?  What other haplogroups are you in?  
All those numbers scared me.  How could I ever explain such a thing

Excuse my lack of knowing the spanish language (shame on my parents!), but what does the term "gato por oso" mean?
> 
> From: "Emilie Garcia" 
> Date: 2005/06/23 Thu AM 12:59:21 EDT
> To: 
> Subject: [ranchos] Joseph's DNA
> 
> So, Joseph,  I couldn't make out a thing on your DNA results.  I guess I am a surumata.  So, are you in the haplogroup for African-Black or for Moroccan-Berber?  What other haplogroups are you in?  All those numbers scared me.  How could I ever explain such a thing to my cousin?  Maybe the researchers are handing us a gato por oso?
> 
> EmilieGet more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
> 
> 

Wow, all these words make me feel at home! 

-----Original Message-----
From: Alberto Duarte [mailto:albertodua@...] 
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 2:59 PM
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ranchos] Re: Name Calling

My wife is from Los Altos, Jalisco, and she uses both words when she is mad.

Alberto.

--- John Gonzalez 1gnzlz@...> wrote:

> I've heard "tarugo"  and "tarado".  Tarugo as in
> "como eres tarugo"   Not being very smart,  almost
> like "como eres menso".  Tarugo, tarado, and menso are used in about 
> the same context.
> I know, I've been called all three at different times!
> 
> John
> 
> 1gnzlz@...
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: latina1955@... 
>   To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 2:26 PM
>   Subject: Re: [ranchos] Re: Name Calling
> 
> 
>   "Tarayata" sounds linked to "taragua" which I was often called 
> because I was considered lazy when I was younger - I simply didn't 
> enjoy doing the household chores while my

Irma,well said.

Next time you talk to your spanish friends, ask them
to send back all the gold they stole from Mexico (just
kidding).

Alberto.

--- Irma GomezLucero  wrote:

> Hi Emilie,
>     I have been enjoying alll of the recent postings
> on racial
> classification.  Excuse me for now jumping onto the
> soapbox.  :)  I hope
> that I don't offend anyone from what I am about to
> say.  I just don't like
> hearing ignorant racist remarks about Indians,
> Mexicans, etc., and people
> who feel superior to other ethnic groups.  Your
> Spanish friend sounds like
> someone with low self-esteem, (as well as possibly
> uneducated) and in that
> she feels that she should distance herself from
> those that she perceives as
> inferior to herself.  Heaven help her poor Mexican
> American husband that has
> to hear such racist comments.  
>     The Spanish I met in Spain when I travelled
> there are nothing like those
> immigrants from Spain or South America that I have
>

Comments:
I really don't believe 99% of the Mexican people know
their blood line(s)and/or the names of their
ancestors.

I've asked people from both sides (Mexico/US) if they
knew their blood lines or if they knew the names of
their great grandfathers, and most of them answered
"they didn't know."

As far as what was written on a baptism record,
regarding race type, I wouldn't put much believe in
it.

Alberto. 

--- Erlinda Castanon-Long 
wrote:

> In matters of race in the church records from Mexico
> I don't think the people being recorded had any idea
> what was being put in the record for nationality.  I
> have in one family, Mejia from the District of
> Jerez, 5 children with 4 different nationalities
> listed.  Mother is listed as Espanol, father is
> listed as Indio. Their children are listed as 1.
> Espanol, 2. Mulato, 3, Indio, 4 Mestiso and 5.
> Espanol... I have to assume some children were
> darker than others so the scribe made the decision
> what

Esperanza,

Here's a link to a partial list of colonial caste system:

http://www.rootsweb.com/~mexcoahu/caste.html


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, latina1955@a... wrote:
> I could be wrong (my memory comes and goes with this stuff called 
menopause  
> - should be called memorypause), but I think coyote was a term used 
to 
> describe  the mixed blood of Indians and African.  
>  
> There was a chart (perhaps someone can recall it here?) that 
described the  
> various labels placed on the mixture of "races" during the early 
part of the  
> conquest, when race delineation was seen as important by the 
Spanish.  I'll  
> keep looking for this chart, but in the meantime, perhaps someone 
else on the  
> board has easy access to it for reference?
>  
> Esperanza

I just found an answer as to why, when my husband and I have roots in 
Mexico going back to the early 1700's, he and I look so different.  
In message #277 Steven Francisco Hernandez Lopez says "most people 
will eiher have a lot of Inidan, Mestizo, or Mulato line, or very 
little to one at all---all the surnames and families that I have so 
far posted----were of the Spanish Hidalgo class".

I recall some of these names being in my husband's family, and his 
aunt in Mexico City told me that his family on both sides, had never 
mixed with Indians.  To furter quote Steven: "Intermarriage was very 
uncommon---to do so would be to kill all chances of opportunity for 
your children and descendants for all time".  My husband's ancestors 
were always merchants, business owners or government officials."  
Mine were always "farmers" or "laborers".

So now there is a new term for me to wonder about;  The Hidalgo 
Class.  Is this where the term "Don" came from?  Many of my ancestors 
in the